1. Jesus in Matt 24 describes the seals as "birth pains" that would naturally precede a birth being the dead raised (and rapture?) at the end of seals. The KJV says "times of sorrow" but the word being used is more specific to labor pains and why other translations instead say "birth pains".
That’s a great comment! Birth pains do come before the actual birth. In this case, yes - we could look at the first resurrection, which coincides with the harpazo, as the birth. I have been relating birth pains to His return and Millennial reign when He begins to restore His creation (as the physical “birth”). I love that though and hadn’t even considered it before! Doh!
Yes - I mostly agree with your comment “at the end of the seals”. More specifically, the sixth seal from my view. The seventh is very shortly following (on the same day), and the half hour of silence signals the beginning of His wrath.
Here’s something I’m still trying to work out. I currently believe the rapture will occur pre-wrath. We’re told more than once that we are not destined for wrath. This being the case, it’s necessary that we are caught up before the end of Daniel’s 70th week. I’m stuck between a pre-wrath rapture and a post-trib rapture. Meaning, I can’t quite be “dogmatic” about it… I’m close, but still digging.
Scripture clearly states that we meet Him in the air at the harpazo.
When considering the cosmological signs of His return, the fifth trumpet judgment (first woe) lasts five months (150 prophetical days), there will be time needed for the remainder of the judgments, etc. - (I just realized my mind is rambling) - I get stuck because I don’t believe Yeshua is returning a THIRD time.
If He comes to get us, in the air, prior to His physical return - doesn’t that count as His second coming? Maybe not? I’m currently digging through original texts to find out exactly how to justify “coming”. Does “in the air” count, or does “2nd coming” only apply to His foot physically on the ground.
Yeshua did say that He would return in the same way He left. He left earth (feet on the ground) and went to Heaven. When He returns, His 2nd coming - reverse the order… Heaven to feet on the ground.
There’s also the Jewish wedding customs to consider. Yeshua was so clearly referring to the Jewish wedding customs when speaking of our gathering to Him. This would explain the short time we are with Him (during the judgments) prior to our return (to earth) with Him - we are said to be escorting Him when He returns.
This leads me to rule out a post trib rapture (currently). There’s also the Noah precedent… Noah was in the ark exactly 1 year and 10 days. I know this is a lot to absorb, but considering Danielic math (all of the specific day counts he gives us), Noah, Jewish wedding customs, etc., I believe we will be raptured out of this world approximately 1 year and 10 days prior to His physical return at the closing of the 70th week.
This belief also dictates the length of His wrath.
Sorry - I kinda got a little off track there…
2. Nowhere in the bible do I find the seals described as wrath nor judgments nor are the Seals directly or indirectly tied to the 7 years like the trumpets and bowls are (as described below).
I tie the seals to the 70th week per the Olivet Discourse and teachings of Paul. I agree - the seals are not directly tied to His wrath. I sent you a link to that blog, so I’ll let you ponder that for a bit and move on.
3. One term that has caused confusion is "tribulation". Nowhere in the bible do I find tribulation attributed to 7 years. The problem of a "7-year tribulation" creates the idea that the Great Tribulation mentioned in the 6th seal must be part of this 7 year tribulation. Below I show it is 7 years of wrath, not tribulation. So in my mind, the Great Tribulation starts with Seals since it is mentioned in seals, specifically the 6th seal describing those who are now before the throne as being those who came out of "great tribulation" and the great tribulation carries on to bowls since Jesus (Matt 24) describes the great tribulation "after" He describes the abomination of desolation. In summary, the Great tribulation starts with seals and the 7yr wrath (I'm getting to it :-) starts with trumpets.
I’m currently in the camp of: first 3.5 years = birth pangs, second 3.5 years = great tribulation. The great tribulation is never described as a 7 year period in Scripture.
Those who “came out of great tribulation” can do so (at the sixth seal) if the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week. The midpoint marks at 3.5 years. I currently believe we’re raptured out of here at approximately the six year mark (out of seven years). So, placing the sixth seal at approximately the six year mark, allows those who came out of great tribulation to indeed come out of the second half of the 70th week… or, in other words - “great tribulation”.
In response to your summary (above) my belief is that the first seal marks the beginning of the 70th week (beginning of birth pangs), and great tribulation begins at the midpoint (3.5 years) marked by the abomination of desolation.
I have no Scriptural basis for seven years of wrath. It won’t take seven years for God to accomplish His wrath. At the shortest, it will be 5 months because of the 5th trumpet text. As mentioned above, I believe His wrath will take ~1 year. If I’m missing something, please provide Scripture.
4. I note I find no mention of raising the dead occurring before the seals are broken. I know some claim that John being told to come up here describes a pre-seal rapture but this doesn't have scriptural support in my opinion. In my mind, the first raising of the dead to heaven is pre-wrath first seen in the 6th seal, not pre-tribulation which includes seals.
We are in agreement on this.
5. This looks like a good time to note a second raising of the dead during the 2 harvests (Rev 14) mentioned between trumpets and bowls. We next see this group in heaven (Rev 15) at the start of bowls and are described as those who did not take the mark of the beast. I suspect this second group belong to the lukewarm church who were spewed out since they were not taken at the 6th seal.
This is a new concept to me.
There are only two resurrections, period (<— me being blunt). The first is the resurrection of the righteous, and the second is the resurrection of the unrighteous at the Great White Throne judgment following the Millennial Reign. Two Scriptural witnesses to this are John and Paul (as I’m sure you’re aware).
Revelation 14, in my opinion, is commentary on the two resurrections I mention above. It is not a literal separate event… it’s commentary on events happening elsewhere in the Revelation. Revelation 14 is a sort of commentary interlude in my opinion. John does this in the Revelation in a few places.
In other words, Revelation chapters 1-22 are not events set in specific chronological order. There are parenthetical interludes that provide additional information on the events described throughout the Revelation. The Revelation chapters do not equate to a chronological map.
6. This 2nd group, now in heaven and are mentioned before the bowls are poured out is important as it claims the beast & mark existed prior to the bowl judgments.
Other than disagreeing on the “2nd group” we agree on the beast & mark.
e.g. The beast & mark occurs during trumpets. Important because Rev 13:5 states the beast exercises it's authority for 3.5 years (during trumpets).
The beast does exercise authority for 3.5 years beginning with the abomination of desolation. That doesn’t mean that trumpets also occur during the entire duration of the 3.5 years. The text doesn’t say that the trumpet judgments last 3.5 years - it only says that the beast exercises authority for 3.5 years. “Trumpets” aren’t even mentioned in Rev 13 so I don’t understand how you’re associating the two.
You may need to spell this out for me. I’m clearly not understanding where you’re coming from on this.
Trumpets (6th) is also when the 2 witnesses are described who prophecy for 3.5 years. Both of these strongly suggest the wrath of trumpets is the first 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week. The second 3.5 years concerns the bowl judgements where the 144,000 are kept safe after the abomination of desolation.
Most of Christendom does indeed teach that the two witnesses are present during the first half of the 70th week. You’ll soon find out, if you continue discussion with me, that I disagree with a LOT of what “Christendom” teaches.
In my studies, the two witnesses come on the scene shortly after the abomination of desolation. This places them in the second half of the 70th week.
The 144,000 are marked pre-wrath - approximately the same time as the rapture. I’ll have to review my notes on why I believe this… I know I have a good reason for believing this, I just can’t get my brain to pop right now.
